Keer "Unplugged": Those of you who have read Created To Be His Help Meet

In another reply from Angela, she stated,

and I think that the main reason that you and I disagree on the book is our perspective on the examples that Debi gives. I see them as examples of what submission looked like to that particular woman in that particular situation, focusing on the attitude of the wife behind the response or action she gives; and you see the inclusion of the examples as more of a directive to the reader, with the action & the attitude/motivation as being more inseparable.

Part of me thinks that may be it, but part of me thinks that's not quite it, yet I can't put my finger on why.

Thoughts, anyone?

32 Comments:

I would agree. I've read the book, but only skimmed your comments so I can't be an "authority" on this. But that seems like what might be the issue here.:)

For the record, the book was very helpful to me and to our marriage. I took it's overall message to mean that submission is going to look different for each different woman in each different situation. I needed the smack in the forehead and the reminder to put my husband first. I needed to be reminded of how wonderful he is and to always focus on building him up. I so easily forget that. If I were married to an abusive husband, perhaps I would have a different perspective on the book? I'm not sure. Regardless, I try to stay out of CTBHHM arguments as they don't seem to go anywhere.

But, I do think we always need to be reminded that no book or author is perfect, except the Bible and that should be our guidebook. Other books can be very beneficial, but we should never hold a human's word above God's Word. So, I appreciate your thorough review. I also appreciated that you did bring out some things that you agreed with, thus making it a balanced review, not just a vitriolic "review" by someone who has only read a little section of the book (I've seen plenty of those, sadly.)

Crystal I understand your perspective. But I think that the reviews have really gotten to the heart of the matter. If you read all of the comments under my most recent statement of unity. I finally have hit on the root of the issue. Rebekah in her comments and a review of the Pearls website reveals a theology about the sin nature of man.

This theology is contrary to what I believe as a Christian. I believe that we are born with a sin nature. The Pearls do not. It would take longer than a comment box to go into it all but if you go to the comments under this post you will fin a great deal of understanding on why this book is so troubling. It is because at its root the Pearls theology is troubling.

Here is what blogger Catez wrote

"The difference is that the Pearls do not teach that we are born with a sin nature, and that is clearly stated in Michael pearls sermon on Romans 1. The orthodox Christian belief that man's nature is sinful. Michael pearl teaches that while we are under a curse we do not have sin imputed to us until a certain age, and that we are not born with a sinful nature but reach a stage of moral understanding and accountability. If you look at waht the Pearl's statement of faith says you can see the semi-pelagianism in it - a mixture of man's own "goodness" apart from God and the gospel of salvation combined. It becomes more evident when listening to the teaching. In their statement of faith they are saying that sin is not imputed to an unbeliever until a certain age - and thus they are saying that until a certain age an unbleiever would not need justification. That is simply not a scriptural position to hold - all are guilty before God and no age is set before sin is imputed. In essence Michael pearl's teaching is that we are not born with a sinful nature and that until a certain age we are not in need of justification. He does not specify the age (which he cannot do as it is not scriptural).
Where Rebekah's comment fits in is that it proposes that we can act from our own "goodness" apart from God - and so works are added to grace as a means of godliness. Works done by the grace of God working within us will be godly - but one cannot add works in the place of grace."

This theology is hidden from view in the book but it is the underlying basis for the book. And the fundamental reason for my theological disagreement outlined in my first post on the book. I did not at the time know all the theology behind what the Pearls believe nor did I have a name for it "Palegian" but I know the less realized the troubling nature of this from the beginning of the book. This theology would be especially troubling to those who may lean in a reformed direction. This teaching is directly opposite of that.

Here's the link to my post with the comments that investigates this more fully. For those who desire to understand the truth behind the theology of the Pearls it will be as enlgihtening for you as it was for me.

http://spunkyhomeschool.blogspot.com/2005/09/statement-of-unity-in-midst-of.html

This cleared things up so much more for me.

I did not write this to debate the Pearls doctrine. I posted it merely to show how having gone through the differing discussions helped bring all of this to the surface for me.

From what I have gathered, the Pearls believe in "sinless perfection" which is entirely different than the above-mentioned doctrine. But I am not entirely sure about that.

Just here for a second while I nurse LOL, but they believe both - that man does not have a sin nature and is not sinful from birth AND in sinless perfection.

I forgot to say: I haven't studied the Pearls doctrinal stuff because I already know I disagree with them on that. However, I didn't find much doctrinal stuff in the book, just plain encouragement to build up my husband. Stuff I don't get many other places. What I took from the book was to focus on doing all I can to love, honor, and cherish my husband. I know this is what I am supposed to do, but I need the reminder as often as I can get it.

Of course I think you should report an abusive husband to the authorities, of course I don't think you should let your husband be a selfish pig, and of course I think there is a time and a place to reprove your husband. Any book can be taken way out of balance and we need to hold everything up to the light of Scripture. But, my husband says that there is not a man on earth who would not desire to be respected, loved, honored, and reverenced by his wife. Every man should be the king in his own home.

I wish more older women would step up and encourage younger women in this. It's hard to be a younger woman without a lot of support coming from many places to encourage us to truly reverence our husbands and fulfill our calling as helpmeets. (My husband and I are living in a very spiritual deserted town while he finishes up law school).

I am so often encouraged by the words and examples of older, experienced, homeschooling, Christian women to look down on my husband, be my own boss, make my own decisions, and do my own thing. It's really sad and hard.

Crystal I was where you were many years ago myself. I had 1 child when my husband entered night school for his MBA and when he finished four years later I had 3 and pregnant with my fourth. I kept asking where are all the "older women?"

But I came to realize that a Titus 2 woman was first and foremose in my own mother. Her love and example will endure longer than any book that I read. It's not a matter of someone "stepping up". It's a place that God will put someone in of HIS Choosing. Not ours.

The scripture does not say you or I MUST have a Titus 2 woman. But merely that there is a biblical function that an older woman should fulfill. That may not always look they way we expect (ie. a book or a national minsitry) but they are there. Be patient and let God bring the things and people HE feels you need to you. If it is truly a void in your life, God knows and HE will fill it.

As far as the book goes, it is doctrinal. There is doctrine all over it. It is disingenuous to say she was just giving practical exasmples, She didn't bill this book as Debi Pearl's Pracical Guide to being a help meet. She said that it is God's Plan. And she makes many doctrinal statements outright. And many others are implied.

It is from the doctrine that this book has its foundation. Rebekah understood this and that's why she made the statements that she did. She understands that the reason for this "negativity" is a belief about the sinful nature of man. That tells me that she sees a difference in how she and I might view the sinful nature. And that this differing view affects how we read the book. I say that is totally the case as well.

I am glad this book helped many. That is great. But one of the first qualifications of a Titus 2 woman (or man) is to teach sound doctrine. (Verse 1). Before I accept a book written by a woman who declares herself a Titus 2 woman I must see that she meets the biblical stanard. And this book fails in the most basic way. It does NOT teach sound doctrine.

Repentance of sin is a necessary first step before we can become the help meet God OR our husband will be blessed with. Further, when we fail it is only through repentance that we can pick up the pieces of our mistakes and make all things new again in HIM. To begin to do anything but that is to put new wine into old wineskins and that never works.

Oops that was Spunky NOT Spunky Jr. that wrote the last comment. I was signed in as my daughter.

That is so true, Spunky. Besides, books do not take the place of a real person that we know. It is sad that Crystal is being encouraged that way by older women. Really, I think the main issue is that we encourage others to turn to Messiah and allow Him to do His work in them. On that basis, we then can encourage them in the things in Titus 2. Without the right foundation, then it is just wood, hay and stubble anyway. We will only be a true Titus 2 woman when we have abandoned to Yeshua the Messiah. Then we will have the foundation and character in our lives that comes from Him. Anyone that is abandoned to Him and is learning to hear His voice will be growing in their relationships with the people in their lives. I'm not negating what is in Titus, but that scripture is somewhat singular, so while it is important, we can raise it far above what it should be and make a huge "doctrine" out of it. We are to be disciples of Messiah and then go from there.
Besides, there are a lot of good books out there on being a good wife. The reason I think why women like Debi's book is because of the "gutsy" style in which she wrote it. Personally, I find some of that gutsiness offensive, especially in her descriptions of other women (like when she was watching people go into that store). That is not being a Titus 2 woman to teach other women to have those kinds of attitudes towards others.
Love and shalom,
Serena

quote:
Repentance of sin is a necessary first step before we can become the help meet God OR our husband will be blessed with. Further, when we fail it is only through repentance that we can pick up the pieces of our mistakes and make all things new again in HIM. To begin to do anything but that is to put new wine into old wineskins and that never works.
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Thank you, Spunky for this. I think I'm starting to understand. Not just for salvation, but for everday life. I've been reading in Matthew and Matt. 6:33 popped out to me. I don't think it means what I've always assumed it to mean. Works truly don't matter without repentance. And then I read on into chapter 7.......

Scripture says I we confess our sin he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

And scripture also teaches that we are to confess our sins one to another.

When we humble ourselves before God and our husbands we can begin to walk in the ways of His Word in a relationship with Him.

God desires to walk with us in our journey to being good help mates. When we are not in a relationship with God or have wronged our husbands by our past sins we cannot restore that except by confession and repentance. That was the whole point of my first post.

A merry heart (or any other good work) will not remove the past or restore a broken relationship.

Only God's grace experienced through the blood of Jesus will.

I think I'm also starting to understand the difference between a true and freeing repentance and a futile cycle of tring to do good things ... failing... trying to find a way- a formula, a book that'll help me do better....failing again....feeling guilty....and on and on.

Exactly Dawn. The idea that a woman can put on a "worldy merry heart" as Rebekah stated and experience the benefits of that is false teaching. It makes it seem as though a woman can do it of her own strength and accord. The problem with that is then when she realizes she can't she will think that God has failed her. But that isn't the truth. God didn't fail her it was a book that taught her she could be good without God.

I agree that the Pearls' doctrine colors the book and I disagree with some of their doctrine, but that is really not what I found unacceptable about the book. It was the "gutsy" in-your-face style that was so offputting to me. Over and over again in the scripture we are told to deal with each other gently and kindly, but to me Debi believes this doesn't apply to her. There are many women who are suffering from genuine pain in their marriages and they come to this book for encouragement and help and are instead told that they are probably the reason for all their problems and to quit being so lazy, whiny, and bitter. This is really unhelpful and will turn away the women who need encouragement the most. Those of us who have the average marriages may need that "kick in the pants" but there are many women who just need love and understanding and encouragement to keep on keeping on and do what they know is right. As an example, the woman who was upset about her husband never doing jobs around the house but always helping other people. Debi's reply was to assume that this woman was lazy and a "home repair dunce" or some such phrase (I gave away my book so can't check the exact wording). This exact thing has been a problem in my marriage, but in our case, I already do most of the home repair and upkeep, do all the homeschooling, housework (with my children) and cooking and laundry. I passed Debi's "test" with flying colors. Added to that I also work outside the home and earn an income equal to my husband (and the fact that I work is by HIS choice, not mine). His lack of attention to our home and to me has caused me real pain. To be told that I am lazy and my dh is just tired from working all day and needs to relax was really unhelpful! Instead, I had to come to the realization on my own that this was not the hill to die on, to keep praying for and loving my husband, to concentrate on his good qualities, which are many, and to cry out to the Lord on those days I feel overwhelmed with all I have to do and realize that He is my strength and shield and will get me through whatever needs doing. AND to constantly work on improving communication with my dh so that we can talk about this and other problems and learn to really listen to each other (an area Debi TOTALLY neglects to even address). This is just a personal example, but to me the book is rife with unkindness, false pride, and insults. There are other books that are scripturally sound but do not have this tone. I think the book, "You Can Be the Wife of a Happy Husband" is also fairly blunt in tone (haven't read it in awhile) but is not so insulting either. There are already SO many good books out there....I am astonished that this one is getting the positive attention it is.

"AND to constantly work on improving communication with my dh so that we can talk about this and other problems and learn to really listen to each other (an area Debi TOTALLY neglects to even address)"

SO true, and I brought that aspect up in my review. If we are to be our husbands help meet wouldn't at the very least at some point in this book she direct us to him for his opinion on what it means. That shoudl have been inlcuded right after the chapter she left out on repentance and forgiveness.

This is something I've brought up with my husband. How can I best help YOU. Yes, there are certain principles which apply to every marriage, but not every woman has the same strengths and gifts. A farmer needs a different "helpmeet" than a politician or writer needs. Unless there is open communication we can be the perfectly "wrong" helpmeet for our husband.

i wonder what Romans Mr P is reading because the Apostle Paul CERTAINLY doesn't teach either of the doctrines that he claims it does...
hmmmmmmmm

The fact that the book is billed as "God's plan for marriage" makes it one I would not recommend to anyone. You can't hand over something billed as being from God, yet which does not stay true to His Word, to people that may or may not know how to discern the truth in it. In this case, I'd say a little leaven leavens the whole loaf.

I see two different issues being raised in this discussion. One being the Pearl's beliefs about sin. The other about whether or not Biblical principles can be applied by Non-Christian people and reap positive results. I think that Biblical principles are indeed beneficial to those who practice them no matter where they are spiritually. Also, I believe that there are MANY "good" people in this world who are also without Christ. Indeed we *can* be GOOD without Jesus. What we cannot be is saved. We even see examples of this in the Bible, such as the rich young ruler who was already doing so many positive things and following the "good" rules. Yes, we can be good on our own.

Pretty much any woman who decides to honor and please her husband and make him feel like a king is going to have a happy man. That's simple and it doesn't even take the Bible to know that. Ask anybody with a truly happy marriage!

I think we may have an issue about which word to use here, Dawn.

When I say good I am talking about decent, right behavior. I believe that the verses you are sighting are largely equating good with acceptance of Christas savior. Have you never known anyone who was not a Christian who at least engaged in decent, right behavior? Before you were saved did you continuously do wrong and never do anything right?

I think good behavior and being good at our core self in a submitted to God sort of way are two different things. I was referring to outward, basic, moral, decent, lawful, kind behavior.

It is interesting to me that in this thread am seeing comments that say basically

1. it is preposterous to think we can be be sinless as Christians in this life because we are all sinners and there is no way around it

plus

2. there is no way that anybody who is not a Christian can be good or benefit from Godly principles in their life.

So, Christians are stuck sinning, and non-Christians can't possibly be good.

HUH?

A few Biblical principles that anyone can benefit from following:

not having sex before marriage
obeying the laws of the land
treating our bodies in ways harmonious with their design
financial contributions to those in need
not being selfish
honoring one's parents (a command with a promise, not tied into being followers of Christ, just for children anywhere!)
loving one's wife
honoring one's husband

There are tons of people doing good on this earth that think that "good" is the Golden Ticket to heaven. There are many lost people doing more good than many saved people. Goodness (meaning personal behavior) isn't the issue.

Hi Keer,

Debi Pearl's book was not a book of possible suggestions and actions that a woman could take if she found herself in a certain situation. It was consistently written for a standpoint that this is EXACTLY how a woman of God will behave. If we want to have a heavenly marriage, we must do it this way.

In many of those scenarios, what I would suggest would have been the wrong thing according to Debi Pearl.

I am also concerned that in so many of the things she put forth she truly assumed a lot of things that were just not evident from those letters. That is scary because it gives the impression that Debi Pearl reads way too much into another person's life. She doesn't give the benefit of the doubt to these women at all. I see a real lack of compassion and understanding, too.

You and Spunky really did a good job at pointing out those inconsistencies. I can't remember whose blog it was that also pointed out (I think it was Spunky's?) the situation of Debi Pearl's double standards when it comes to dispensing advice to men and woman. To the man not getting enough sex, the wife had NO excuse. To the woman who wrote her and told her she wasn't getting enough, she told this wife to check into vitamins and rest and the like.

I just read an article about a condition that causes women to "close-up" during intimacy. It is a very real condition and it is usually brought about because of past sexual abuse or trauma to that area (such as childbirth). Debi just dismisses these very real issues and tells the woman she needs to buck up. No mercy at all.

I also cannot understand endorsing a book whose author has such an unorthodox view of sin. It will color everything. The foundation is flawed.

It is like endorsing books on marriage written by Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses and Muslims. Just because there is some truth in it doesn't mean that it is good. You cannot dismiss the basic theology of the author because it colors *everything* they have to say. A little leaven leavens the whole bunch. :-)

Also, the issues of their theology are not those of infant vs believer's baptism or tongues vs. cessationists or any other things that orthodox believers disagree about. It is something that goes against our basic Christian creeds.

It isn't about how we view this book at all. It is the fact that Mrs. Pearl touts this book as God's way to a heavenly marriage. It really is her way or the highway.

Well said Sparrow.

Dolly Mama, a heart that is not for God is against God. So they may have "outward" behavior that some perceive as "good" it is not. Their motive is toward pleasure and love of self. Even if the action is "other" focused it is still done from a selfish motive. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

So if you are talking about a humanistic "good" then you are correct. These principles will lead to human pleasure. But if in a God centered focus our works cannot please God unless accompanies by faith in God.

For those that may be interested in a further look at the doctrine of the Pearls I would suggest reading Catez's most recent post at AllThingsToAll

http://allthings2all.blogspot.com/2005/09/michael-and-debi-pearls-no-greater-joy_30.html

Sparrow and Spunky,

I truly do understand the difference between being outwardly good and being acceptable to God and His child. This hair-splitting is kind of bizarre to me. Have you never known anyone who was a nice person, a good person, but did not have God in their life? Have you never known a nice family that had a long and happy marriage? A close family with kind, polite children? And none of them was saved? I have. I have known nice, moral, kind, good people that were unsaved that are far more pleasant to be around than some long-time Christians that I know.

All people have a choice. If we did not have the capacity to make good choices, we would not have the capacity to choose God. Of course, I guess that will open up another can of worms about whether or not we choose God or He chooses us. :)

Dollymama, over and out. ;)

Hey thanks Spunky. Keer - hope this is ok. I couldn't see an email addy for you on your blog. I've posted on the Pearl's doctrine and I think you might be interested:

Michael and Debi Pearl's No Greater Joy Ministries: A Look at the Basics

I think it explains why there is this confusion over who the book is for etc.

Hi Dollymama - no it isn't splitting hairs. If the foundation isn't sound the house won't be. There are plenty of self-help books with methods that work to a degree but from a Christian perspective they are very erroneous. When it comes to essential doctrine then I think we need to be sound and use wisdom. I do hear these comments from a few women - along the lines that it has some good advice or that they need a "Titus 2" woman (there is no such thing as a "Titus 2" woman in the bible. There are older women. We need to be in grace, regenerated by the Holy Spirit if we want works which do not perish in the fire when tested. So I ask - who are we wanting to please? Ourselves temporarily or God? For me - I cannot please God with trying to aply externals. Yes, I've met some "good" people who aren't Christians. There but for the grace of God go I. If their "goodness" is enough I would not need Christ. If you see where I'm heading... In my post it becomes apparent why there is no teaching on sanctification as part of a marriage relationship.

Know what? It sounds like actually you gals DO know what I'm talking about. The way in which you are still willing to try to create a debate out of it is amazing to me!

So, one for the road here:

1. I know the difference between good behavior and saved by grace/sanctification and all that "good" stuff (snort)

2. YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN when I say that people CAN and DO behave in "good" ways even apart from having Christ as their savior.

3. I firmly believe that Godly principles reap benefits for the Godly and the ungodly. They are principles for living, not for Christians only. I also believe that having God's power in one's life enables them to apply Godly principles more successfully than those who are lacking God's power in their life.

4. I dislike much of the junk in CTBBHM, but agree with the basic issues of honoring one's husband, and in general being a blessing to him in every way possible. I believe that those particular ideas would benefit any marriage that had them applied to them. However, I would never recommend the book to anyone, especially not a non-Christian.

So, this will be my last comment here on this. (stop applauding! I can hear you!) Hopefully you all will choose to follow along with the "jist" of what I am saying, and stop composing large posts taking my point completely out of context. Go give your husband a back rub, for cryin' out loud! ;)

(I hope you get the good natured humor in this, girls. Loosen up!)

LOl. Well I agree with this:
"I dislike much of the junk in CTBBHM, but agree with the basic issues of honoring one's husband, and in general being a blessing to him in every way possible. I believe that those particular ideas would benefit any marriage that had them applied to them. However, I would never recommend the book to anyone, especially not a non-Christian."
I appreciate the humour too.

FINALLY getting around to posting. LOL...in case anyone is still reading! ;-)

So back to the original post (Angela's observation)...perhaps what doesn't sit quite right about that observation is the fact that repeatedly throughout the book Mrs. Pearl held up those examples as THE WAY that we need to respond? Sure there were lots of heart issues that I could transfer into my own life, but those weren't the only things that Mrs. Pearl was referring to.

And, quite frankly, we simply DON'T KNOW. We have no idea if Mrs. Pearl meant to address the heart issue behind these examples or if she was using these examples as a "directive" to other women in similar situations. She never says. It would not have been very difficult for her to say, "For example," or to even put a stronger emphasis on the heart issue and less of one on the actual situation. That way there would not have even been the confusion that there is about the examples.

DollyMama, I'm following you and totally agree. The good principles that are in this book (and they ARE there) could be implemented by nonbelievers to improve their marriage. Would it be a godly marriage? No. But it would be a better one most likely.

And Dawn,

"And JFTR, faith is a grace, not something we bring to the salvation table. If it were, it would be a work to add to what He did for us. But I digress here because I know Keer doesn't want me debating that on her blog....lol. ;)"

NO I DON'T!!!! We ain't EVEN goin' there! LOL!!!!!!! You rascal! ;-)

Keer "Unplugged"

Wednesday, September 28, 2005

Those of you who have read Created To Be His Help Meet

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